From deisenst@coin.org Thu Sep 13 09:21:50 2001 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:21:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , "Cheryl L. Hill" , Jeff Brotemarkle , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw Subject: A cry Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Having had an incredible dream last night, of attending a holy service and participating in sacred holy rites foreign to me, inspiration came to write this: ---- ---- ---- It is never too soon to beat swords into plough-shares. It is never too soon to declare "war no more." We can come through this crisis with a leadership unheard of before with potential for peace and sensitivity never before demonstrated in such a scale. There are so many ways we can be talked into mindless fighting, senseless bloodshed, stupid retribution, that will feed the evil, glorify the wrong, justify violent means pursued by the unenlightened, and perpetuate the slumber of intelligent holiness, the slumber of regard and love for fellow humans. But we can choose to awaken, to be above base, instinctual desires. How can convictions of peace and human brotherhood overcome senseless war-mongering? What would Jesus do? ---- ---- ---- ---- Before writing this, and after awakening from this awesome, peaceful dream, I was filled with conviction that we people, citizens, need to make sure that calming, cooling, intelligently-loving words need to come to the attention of our heads of state -- George W. Bush, and others with tremendous authority to make huge decisions. If so, how? George's mother, Barbara Bush, came to mind, as a possible way to communicate such concern, with need for caution and calm conviction of the reality of holiness to help make sane decisions. Have you, my fellow members of Habadasher Soup, any thoughts or plans on how we can help present views alternative to those of retired generals and joint-chiefs, who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- who seem to let (or promote) anger, threats, to be carrying the day? What alternatives to violence have we, and how can we get them heard or broadcast and humbly considered by human powers? Love, David From vhinshaw@coin.org Thu Sep 13 15:10:44 2001 Received: from coin.org (coin-as2-41.coin.org [207.160.150.136]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8DKAhu20153 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:10:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3B9C1336.901EE9F3@coin.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:11:18 -1000 From: val hinshaw X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" Subject: Re: A cry References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2544 Status: RO X-Status: A Dear David: What a beautiful, sensitive poem that expresses so beautifully what is in my heart! Thank you, David. I haven't given up on a joint public statement by all the peace groups in Columbia. Wish you were here. If I had your permission, I will use your poem at an opportune time. Ok? Let me know. shalom, Val "David D. Eisenstein" wrote: > Having had an incredible dream last night, of attending a holy service and > participating in sacred holy rites foreign to me, inspiration came to > write this: > > ---- ---- ---- > > It is never too soon to beat swords > into plough-shares. > > It is never too soon to declare > "war no more." > > We can come through this crisis > with a leadership unheard of before > with potential for peace and sensitivity > never before demonstrated in such a scale. > > There are so many ways > we can be talked into mindless fighting, > senseless bloodshed, stupid retribution, > that will feed the evil, glorify the wrong, > justify violent means pursued by the unenlightened, > and perpetuate the slumber of intelligent > holiness, the slumber of regard and love for > fellow humans. > > But we can choose to awaken, to be above base, > instinctual desires. > > How can convictions of peace and human brotherhood > overcome senseless war-mongering? > > What would Jesus do? > > ---- ---- ---- ---- > > Before writing this, and after awakening from this awesome, peaceful > dream, I was filled with conviction that we people, citizens, need to make > sure that calming, cooling, intelligently-loving words need to come to the > attention of our heads of state -- George W. Bush, and others with > tremendous authority to make huge decisions. If so, how? George's > mother, Barbara Bush, came to mind, as a possible way to communicate such > concern, with need for caution and calm conviction of the reality of > holiness to help make sane decisions. > > Have you, my fellow members of Habadasher Soup, any thoughts or plans on > how we can help present views alternative to those of retired generals and > joint-chiefs, who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- who seem > to let (or promote) anger, threats, to be carrying the day? What > alternatives to violence have we, and how can we get them heard or > broadcast and humbly considered by human powers? > > Love, > David From deisenst@coin.org Thu Sep 13 15:18:20 2001 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:18:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: val hinshaw Subject: Re: A cry In-Reply-To: <3B9C1336.901EE9F3@coin.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Dear Val, Yes. You indeed do have my permission to use the poem. Thank you for asking. I am honored. Shalom, David On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, val hinshaw wrote: > Dear David: What a beautiful, sensitive poem that expresses so beautifully > what is in my heart! Thank you, David. I haven't given up on a joint public > statement by all the peace groups in Columbia. Wish you were here. If I had > your permission, I will use your poem at an opportune time. Ok? Let me > know. shalom, Val > > "David D. Eisenstein" wrote: > > > Having had an incredible dream last night, of attending a holy service and > > participating in sacred holy rites foreign to me, inspiration came to > > write this: > > > > ---- ---- ---- > > > > It is never too soon to beat swords > > into plough-shares. > > > > It is never too soon to declare > > "war no more." > > > > We can come through this crisis > > with a leadership unheard of before > > with potential for peace and sensitivity > > never before demonstrated in such a scale. > > > > There are so many ways > > we can be talked into mindless fighting, > > senseless bloodshed, stupid retribution, > > that will feed the evil, glorify the wrong, > > justify violent means pursued by the unenlightened, > > and perpetuate the slumber of intelligent > > holiness, the slumber of regard and love for > > fellow humans. > > > > But we can choose to awaken, to be above base, > > instinctual desires. > > > > How can convictions of peace and human brotherhood > > overcome senseless war-mongering? > > > > What would Jesus do? > > > > ---- ---- ---- ---- > > > > Before writing this, and after awakening from this awesome, peaceful > > dream, I was filled with conviction that we people, citizens, need to make > > sure that calming, cooling, intelligently-loving words need to come to the > > attention of our heads of state -- George W. Bush, and others with > > tremendous authority to make huge decisions. If so, how? George's > > mother, Barbara Bush, came to mind, as a possible way to communicate such > > concern, with need for caution and calm conviction of the reality of > > holiness to help make sane decisions. > > > > Have you, my fellow members of Habadasher Soup, any thoughts or plans on > > how we can help present views alternative to those of retired generals and > > joint-chiefs, who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- who seem > > to let (or promote) anger, threats, to be carrying the day? What > > alternatives to violence have we, and how can we get them heard or > > broadcast and humbly considered by human powers? > > > > Love, > > David > > From deisenst@coin.org Thu Sep 13 18:29:04 2001 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:29:04 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: Val Hinshaw Subject: Update, re: A Cry Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-851401618-1000423744=:19405" Status: RO X-Status: ---559023410-851401618-1000423744=:19405 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Val, Enclosed is a slightly updated version of the poem. I changed the last stanza, feeling it more appropriate for a wider audience, changing the reference from "Jesus" to "God." God is the more universal diety of the two. Please use this enclosed version rather then the other, earlier version. Thanks. Respectfully, David ---559023410-851401618-1000423744=:19405 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="a_cry.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: A Cry CSAgICAgICAgQSBDcnkNCg0KCS0tLS0JLS0tLQktLS0tDQoNCiAgICAgSXQg aXMgbmV2ZXIgdG9vIHNvb24gdG8gYmVhdCBzd29yZHMgDQogICAgICAgaW50 byBwbG91Z2gtc2hhcmVzLg0KDQogICAgIEl0IGlzIG5ldmVyIHRvbyBzb29u IHRvIGRlY2xhcmUNCiAgICAgICAid2FyIG5vIG1vcmUuIg0KDQogICAgIFdl IGNhbiBjb21lIHRocm91Z2ggdGhpcyBjcmlzaXMNCiAgICAgICB3aXRoIGEg bGVhZGVyc2hpcCB1bmhlYXJkIG9mIGJlZm9yZQ0KICAgICAgIHdpdGggcG90 ZW50aWFsIGZvciBwZWFjZSBhbmQgc2Vuc2l0aXZpdHkNCiAgICAgICBuZXZl ciBiZWZvcmUgZGVtb25zdHJhdGVkIGluIHN1Y2ggYSBzY2FsZS4NCg0KICAg ICBUaGVyZSBhcmUgc28gbWFueSB3YXlzDQogICAgICAgd2UgY2FuIGJlIHRh bGtlZCBpbnRvIG1pbmRsZXNzIGZpZ2h0aW5nLA0KICAgICAgIHNlbnNlbGVz cyBibG9vZHNoZWQsIHN0dXBpZCByZXRyaWJ1dGlvbiwNCiAgICAgICB0aGF0 IHdpbGwgZmVlZCB0aGUgZXZpbCwgZ2xvcmlmeSB0aGUgd3JvbmcsDQogICAg ICAganVzdGlmeSB2aW9sZW50IG1lYW5zIHB1cnN1ZWQgYnkgdGhlIHVuZW5s aWdodGVuZWQsDQogICAgICAgYW5kIHBlcnBldHVhdGUgdGhlIHNsdW1iZXIg b2YgaW50ZWxsaWdlbnQNCiAgICAgICBob2xpbmVzcywgdGhlIHNsdW1iZXIg b2YgcmVnYXJkIGFuZCBsb3ZlIGZvcg0KICAgICAgIGZlbGxvdyBodW1hbnMu DQoNCiAgICAgQnV0IHdlIGNhbiBjaG9vc2UgdG8gYXdha2VuLCB0byBiZSBh Ym92ZSBiYXNlLA0KICAgICAgIGluc3RpbmN0dWFsIGRlc2lyZXMuDQoNCiAg ICAgSG93IGNhbiBjb252aWN0aW9ucyBvZiBwZWFjZSBhbmQgaHVtYW4gYnJv dGhlcmhvb2QNCiAgICAgICBvdmVyY29tZSBzZW5zZWxlc3Mgd2FyLW1vbmdl cmluZz8NCg0KICAgICBXaGF0IHdvdWxkIEdvZCB3YW50IHVzIHRvIGRvPw0K DQoNCgkJCURhdmlkIEVpc2Vuc3RlaW4NCgkJCVRodSBTZXAgMTMsIDIwMDEs IH44OjQ1YW0NCg0KDQoNCg0KQ29weXJpZ2h0IChDKSAyMDAxLCBEYXZpZCBE LiBFaXNlbnN0ZWluLg== ---559023410-851401618-1000423744=:19405-- From david_ackerman@yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 22:05:34 2001 Received: from web11505.mail.yahoo.com (web11505.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.37]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8E35Yu16143 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:05:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <20010914030531.83236.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [128.206.105.37] by web11505.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:05:31 PDT Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:05:31 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ackerman Subject: Re: A cry To: deisenst@coin.org, cheryllhill@yahoo.com, jbrotema@coin.org, kcl78@yahoo.com, lculbe6495@aol.com, RevRhy@aol.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 4810 Status: RO X-Status: Dear David, I'm terribly sorry to disagree with you, but I think that thus far the retired generals and joint chiefs have thus far demonstrated remarkable calm and sense. They have advocated slow and carefull consideration. They have spoken words to both calm and solidify the people of our great nation. (And even though I recognize some of its imperfections, I will still maitain that it is a great nation. Few other nations would demonstrate such tremendous restraint in the face of such a deliberate attack.) What sir would you suggest is an appropriate response at a time such as this, and what of our governments official action wopuld you suggest has been otherwise? As I see the situation, the leaders of our executive and military have universally advocated carefull investigation to understand what has just occured. They have suggested that whatever action is taken, it should be taken in the carefull and considered spirit of justice and human preservation. Thay have stated that they seek a long term solution to the problem of violence and terrorism in the world. I believe, perhaps naievely, that they seek peace. They have said that this was an act of war. What else could it possibly be? They have not declared war on anyone yet. But if they have expressed an intention to war with anyone or anything, it is terrorism. They have, if you will, declared war on the very principle of war, and vilolence. I understand that you are a peace loving human being. I understand that you believe war is violent and insane. I do not yet advocate any particulair course of action, but neither has the government. They have said that we will do whatever is necessary to end a particulairly violent crime against all humanity. It cannot be ended as it is a part of us, but it can be to some extent preventd, and it must be fought, as a disease must be fought. I will decry the actions of the governmkent only if, and at such time, as I find them unconscionable, and a condemnation of an act I find unconscionable is not itself unconscionable. I am affraid sir, that at present I am fully in support of our government, in a way I have never been before. And I will suggest that it is your sworn duty to do your duty to God and your country. I am not your conscience, and cannot determine that duty, but I will suggest that this is a time for extremely carefull reflection, and your reaction does not feel well considered to me, or even entirely appropriate. I appologize for my frank speach, but I am attempting to understand what an appropriate reaction might be myself, and I truly believe that the administration is doing the same. I do not condone violence, but I also do not condone complacency in the face of clear danger. The difficulty here is the extreme complexity of the task. Fifty years ago, the governments of Germany and Japan were cleraly opressive, and unconscionable. As they were ecomnomicaly and politicaly independant from the U.S. and as they were actively pursuing vilonce against humanity in general, and our country in particulair, we were without any acceptable alternative to a violent answer to vilolence. It may be that a political answer is available to us now. But if no answer to violence is to be had, violence in the service of a greater peace may be necessary. As it is to early to say what an appropriate response is, it is also to early to say that many responses are innapropriate. Obviously terrorism is not an appropriate answer. Nuclear war will not avail us. We can eliminate the absurd, but not only the absurd, and war is not an absurd response to war. If we throw up our hands and turn the other cheek, what will it serve us? That is an admirable decission to make on a personal level, but it is not generaly viable, or perhaps even wise, or a larger social or political level. As long as one man can fashion a sword, and does not believe in peace, it will be necessary for other men to carry swords in the service of other men bearing plowshares. It will be necessary that some men must lay down their lives that others may live. This is not good. It is the wages of flawed human beings. It is the world as it is. This will remain the state of the sinfull world until Christ may come again. I cannot abandon my faith in the rule of law, or the essential sensebility of our pecculiar political contract yet. May we all hold our hands in reservation untill such time as we know and understand the prudent course of actions. And may thought and not emotion rule our judgement, but may emotion and compassion temper it. Sincerely, David Ackerman __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From deisenst@coin.org Fri Sep 14 00:39:17 2001 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:39:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" Reply-To: "David D. Eisenstein" To: David Ackerman cc: cheryllhill@yahoo.com, jbrotema@coin.org, kcl78@yahoo.com, lculbe6495@aol.com, RevRhy@aol.com Subject: Re: A cry In-Reply-To: <20010914030531.83236.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Dear David A., I am prayerfully considering your response. I thank you for sharing your point of view. I will especially consider accusations of inappropriate- ness that you challenge me with, in the train of the thoughts I have shared with you all. Intend to respond to them more fully in a later note. Having read your response to me 3-4 times now, I find myself far more in agreement with you than in disagreement. Our positions may truly not be very far apart. There may be many imprecisions of language and even of fact in my last note ... and some of it may be due to fuzzy thinking, not checking facts carefully, and poetic license. Perhaps I am terribly mistaken in my characterization of what generals or joint-chiefs are saying or proposing. If so, I apologize: I goofed and didn't have my facts straight. From what you said, "I will still maitain that it is a great nation. Few other nations would demonstrate such tremendous restraint in the face of such a deliberate attack," I agree wholeheartedly, and respect and appreciate your helping to set me straight on that. We are being a gentle giant so far. The thrust of my thoughts and poem may be how afraid I am of the the *focus* that the *media* seems to have had on interviewing people (official or no) who would propose actions that seem war-like (grand-scale war-like), or who seem to want to transfer feelings or suggest anger or hatred-like feelings for fellow American citizens. (Maybe feelings that are already there. Anger for sure.) I may be taking those few interviews of that nature I have seen (and not having seen as many more recent interviews with high-ranking officials, not knowing the calm, careful, reserved way they are going about things). (My ignorance of which I apologize, and I thank you again for clearing that up.) I am deeply ashamed of and embarrassed by humanity's apparent ability and eagerness to respond to violence with more violence. I have felt ashamed of our government's involvement in some militaristic actions undertaken over the years, such as Vietnam, such as huge interferences in other nations' politics by secret services, CIA's and that ilk. I had huge misgivings about Desert Storm. And it is, perhaps, predicting that such (to me) shameful actions may be being encouraged by some people (in media? in government? private citizens? folks who get off on fighting?) that had driven my remarks and the poem that would ask for a higher, nobler, more loving-kindly way of resolving disputes. Please, please understand that I am not now ashamed of anything the U.S. government in its official capacity has done at this time to my knowledge in response to these terrorist attacks happening Tuesday. But my remarks in the previous missive may borrow trouble by "borrowing shame," by predicting (what I view as) the worst in human behavior coming into being, which is the insanity of war. It has been my experience that humans all too often rise to the worst within themselves -- when not thinking with love and compassion. In predicting and presuming coming true of these potential acts that might "shame" us, I come into full congruence with what Rev. William Sloan Coffin says in terms of what real patriotism is. He talks in 1983 of our struggles in those days with Russia in the cold war, having previously made the point that neither Russia nor the U.S. were blameless in the thing, and were indeed at one in sin in perpetuating that day's cold war and the build-up of nuclear arsenals. I now quote Coffin (remember, this is when Reagan was president): "... we are not only brothers and sisters, we and the Russians. We are fellow sinners. And there must be as many Russians who know that as there are Americans, although for obvious reasons their voices are more muted. I think the world is sustained by a kind of international solidarity of people who are ashamed of what their govern- ments are doing. And I think the shame is not only a deeply religious emotion--which it obvious[ly] is--but also I'm suggesting it is an intensely patriotic emotion, which reflects the determination and courage of citizens to carry on a lover's quarrel with their governments-- which is the essence of patriotism. Not a grudge fight. But certainly a lover's quarrel. Which in turn is only a reflection of God's continuing lover's quarrel with the entire world. "Now in international affairs, the importance of shame is crucial! If we Americans consider ourselves sinless--as apparently President Reagan seems to think we are--that all the evil is over there in that empire--and the Soviets are the Devil with whom obviously you never strike a bar- gain--then we never seriously negotiate an end to the arms race--which we are certainly not doing! And if we think the only thing the enemy understands is force, then we have to behave as if the only thing we understand is force. There's no other way of doing it." If the people who perpetrated these atrocities felt themselves as justified and sinless, and that the United States were the Evil Empire, and the U.S. were the Devil with whom one obviously never treats or bargains with ... ??? Scapegoating is so easy. So easy. David, I would like to ask you to rethink your accusation that would cast in doubt the validity of my duty to our country and/or our God. I would like to hope it was hastily written and not reviewed before hitting the "send" key. I do indeed feel accused and feel blamed now for having shared my pacifistic views, and although they may differ from many who feel there is such a thing as a "just war," it does not mean that they are coming from a place in the heart that wants to see our nation fumble or fall. Indeed, I want the greatness of this great experiment in Democracy, Liberty, Justice to succeed beyond all imaginings. If I choose to quarrel with things that are warlike, with proclivities towards retribution, then it is a quarrel with things that I view harmful not only to this nation, but to all humanity, as a citizen of Earth as well as a citizen of the United States of America. I would ask you reconsider in light of this whether imputing my motives as unpatriotic or irreligious is truly what you want to do. And if it is, so be it. I will love you no less. Thanks, David. Shalom, David E. From david_ackerman@yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 16:59:21 2001 Received: from web11502.mail.yahoo.com (web11502.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.47]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8FLxKu00545 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:59:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <20010915215920.42022.qmail@web11502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [128.206.103.151] by web11502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:59:20 PDT Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:59:20 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ackerman Subject: Re: A cry To: "David D. Eisenstein" Cc: cheryllhill@yahoo.com, jbrotema@coin.org, kcl78@yahoo.com, lculbe6495@aol.com, RevRhy@aol.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 3609 Status: RO X-Status: Dear David, I do not wish to impugn your patriotism. I was questioning your jusdgement. It might have been most innapropriate of me to speak to your oaths to our government. I believe that you are fully aware of, and dedicated to your oath to God, which oath I expect you rightly hold above your oath to our government. I was simply stating that it had not been my experience that the government had suggested innapropriate action. On the other hand, I do believe in the possibility of a just war. War is an ugly demon that rears its head before us, and we should carefully consider before we invoke this dread course, but I feel that we also must not shrink from it if it is the course by which we must defend not only our own life and liberty, but also that of innocents the world over being opressed by terror and totalitarianism. To respond to your comments regarding Mr. Reagan and the "Evil Empire" speech, one great irony that comes to mind is the number of arms talks and treaties that he participated in. Under the Reagan administration, (of which you may recall I am generally rather critical,) START II and the ABM treaties were both signed into law, creating a framework for disarmament that we are still implementing today. I believe he also participated in a talk regarding a treaty called salt, but I no longer recall the details. In any case, in spite of his rhetoric, he managed to reach across to Gorbachev and at the very least agree to treaties that others had constructed. When you talk of the "sin" of the U.S. and the Soviet Union, I will agree that we are by no means sinless. On the other hand, the article makes a stagerring point when it says that for obvious reasons Soviet citizens were unable to criticize their gevernment as we were. Is that not exactly what we were fighting for? Additionaly, the "Cold War" was a contest primarily of diplomacy. It is a cold war precisely because it was never a war. For nearly the first time in history, two great nations with deeply different policies managed to forestall war and insanity, and the intense "nuke 'em all" patriotism of their citizenry, and see a relatively peacefull end to the conflict. To paraphrase Shakespeare, "Never before had two such great nations met on the field of battle without out much loss of blood." In any case, though we have as a nation made some questionable decissions, and even some horendous mistakes, we have in general stood up for what we believed in. You and I now will stand firm upon our beliefs, and come to compromise and understanding. I have not seen the hostility on television. I've seen it personaly. Amd I've attempted to talk sense to the most violently angry of the people that I know. In the media, Mr. Powell has generally seemed quite carefull in what he has said. Mr. Rumsfeld has also generally seemed carefull. Mr. Bush has sometimes said things that sounded rather inflamatory, but he is a poor public speaker, and he more than any other is perhaps attempting to reassure the common people that the government will not stand idly by and let things like this happen. If my tone was ill considered, please accept my appologies, but I felt you were accusing the government of sins it had not commited. I do not question your patriotism. I think that you are one of the most carefull and considerate people that I know. Please forgive me. Sincerely, David Ackerman __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From deisenst@coin.org Tue Sep 18 02:52:55 2001 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:52:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" Reply-To: "David D. Eisenstein" To: "Cheryl L. Hill" , Jeff Brotemarkle , Val Hinshaw Subject: Help? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Hi, I wrote the ff. message, which I am sending only to you three. I am confused and upset with Mr. Ackerman's responses, and I frankly feel angry with him. I feel perhaps a war of sorts has come into being between him and me, but it may be only me. Here I seem to want to preach peace and forgiveness and love, but then cannot bring myself to practice it when someone disagrees with such preachings. So I ask you, Cheryl, Jeff, Val -- any of you who wish to respond. Can you answer the following questions or assertions -- the publication of which to David Ackerman might only inflame or exacerbate already existing hurt feelings somewhere? (Which is why I don't send it to him nor his girlfriend ... and I don't send it to Lucrecia because I sense she gets unhealthy glee from viewing or creating controversy, and do not feel it would be helpful to share it with her at this time.) And can you let me know -- do you, too, question my judgment in the previous posting(s), as David Ackerman does? Am I out of line to feel anger with David? If I feel his trespass, where do I start forgiveness? I sense attempted apology from him, but do not feel ready to accept it yet. --- (proposed letter to entire group, and to you 3 now) --- Am I the only one here who believes we can or should present views alternative to those who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- who seem to let (or promote) anger, threats, goals of retribution and revenge against terrorists to be carrying the day? Are there any alternatives to violence that we as a nation, or as Christians, or as individuals, have? Is this whole thing really about retribution and revenge, making sure we use swords to kill those who use swords against us -- or perhaps even using them before others can use them, in a pre-emptive strike against our enemies as a defense? For national security, doncha know? Are peaceful solutions really pointless? Outdated? Does no one on this email list care about reducing or healing cycles where violence and misunderstanding beget more violence and misunderstanding? "He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8 Perhaps "just war" and "loving mercy" are the same things in God's eyes? To continue Micah: The LORD's voice cries to the city-- Wisdom shall see Your name: "Hear the rod! Who has appointed it? Are there yet the treasures of wickedness In the house of the wicked, And the short measure that is an abomination? Shall I count pure those with the wicked scales, And with the bag of deceitful weights? For her rich men are full of violence, Her inhabitants have spoken lies, And their tongue is deceitful in their mount. "Therefore I will also make you sick by striking you, By making you desolate because of your sins. You shall eat, but not be satisfied; Hunger shall be in your midst. You may carry some away, but shall not save them; And what you do rescue I will give over to the sword. "You shall sow, but not reap; You shall tread the olives, but not anoint yourselves with oil; And make sweet wine, but not drink wine. For the statutes of Omri are kept; All the works of Ahab's house are done; And you walk in their counsels, That I may make you a desolation, And your inhabitants a hissing. Therefore you shall bear the reproach of My people." Micah 6:9-16 Confused, David Eisenstein From chehill@concentric.net Tue Sep 18 08:54:19 2001 Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8IDsHu23780; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:54:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.198.83]) by darius.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f8IDs7003210 ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Errors-To: Received: from concentric.net (ts003d44.okc-ok.concentric.net [64.1.16.152]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id JAA00774; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BA75102.69DD2FD6@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:49:55 -0500 From: Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill Reply-To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" CC: Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , "Cheryl L. Hill" , Jeff Brotemarkle , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw Subject: Re: A cry References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5027 Status: RO X-Status: Dear David E., I've been traveling home from Montana to Oklahoma City. I haven't had a chance to read the other RE: A CRY messages, but want you to know how very much I appreciate your thoughts here. It helps me feel like you were listening to my heart and understood my mind as I spoke about the need for Restorative Justice in Oklahoma City. The world needs discipline (teaching how to do the right thing - sometimes incarceration and destroying *stuff* is the best way to teach people) when some of its children behave so badly, but punishment and retriubution (wanting to hurt or destroy *people* because they have hurt me) is all too easy a substitute. So, what can we do? We can try to respond to the "wars" that will erupt in our own friendship circles. I am very concerned about people living in the United States who "appear" to be from the middle east. There are already terrible stories about neighbors seeking revenge upon their U.S. neighbors. At a Quaker meeting I attended, in which the words of your dream would have been very welcome, an eleven year old girl, Laura, and I worked to bring into being a vision that another woman had. The woman said that she saw a vision of lapel buttons with Jesus' face and outstreached arms and a message with something like, "Some of the world's greatest leaders are from the Middle East." Laura and I and Rex, Laura's dad, struggled to refine the statement. We designed a button that is still in progress that will have red, white, and blue on it saying, "In the midst of rumors of war, American Christians remember that The Prince of Peace is from the Middle East: Love your Middle Eastern Neighbor as Yourself * September 11, 2001." Anyway, so I think what we can do is what you have done: create poetry, art, and messages of care for the world. Thank you for sharing your voice. Others may not agree with what you have written here, but I do. Absolutely. I am recovering from being away from my home for a month, and I am preparing a training event for the Volunteer Legal Center this Saturday. I will return your telephone call as soon as I can. Pray for my kitty Paraclete. She is very sick. Also, if you feel lonely in your perspective in this crisis, read some of the remarks of Untied States bishops and Christian leaders around the world, and you will know that you are not alone. Love your enemies: Do good to those who hate you. blessings, Cheryl "David D. Eisenstein" wrote: > Having had an incredible dream last night, of attending a holy service and > participating in sacred holy rites foreign to me, inspiration came to > write this: > > ---- ---- ---- > > It is never too soon to beat swords > into plough-shares. > > It is never too soon to declare > "war no more." > > We can come through this crisis > with a leadership unheard of before > with potential for peace and sensitivity > never before demonstrated in such a scale. > > There are so many ways > we can be talked into mindless fighting, > senseless bloodshed, stupid retribution, > that will feed the evil, glorify the wrong, > justify violent means pursued by the unenlightened, > and perpetuate the slumber of intelligent > holiness, the slumber of regard and love for > fellow humans. > > But we can choose to awaken, to be above base, > instinctual desires. > > How can convictions of peace and human brotherhood > overcome senseless war-mongering? > > What would Jesus do? > > ---- ---- ---- ---- > > Before writing this, and after awakening from this awesome, peaceful > dream, I was filled with conviction that we people, citizens, need to make > sure that calming, cooling, intelligently-loving words need to come to the > attention of our heads of state -- George W. Bush, and others with > tremendous authority to make huge decisions. If so, how? George's > mother, Barbara Bush, came to mind, as a possible way to communicate such > concern, with need for caution and calm conviction of the reality of > holiness to help make sane decisions. > > Have you, my fellow members of Habadasher Soup, any thoughts or plans on > how we can help present views alternative to those of retired generals and > joint-chiefs, who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- who seem > to let (or promote) anger, threats, to be carrying the day? What > alternatives to violence have we, and how can we get them heard or > broadcast and humbly considered by human powers? > > Love, > David -- Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill (405) 741-3542 Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C. Follow this link daily to "Donate Free Food" From chehill@concentric.net Tue Sep 18 09:07:37 2001 Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8IE7au26202 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:07:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.198.83]) by darius.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f8IE6q008087 ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Errors-To: Received: from concentric.net (ts003d44.okc-ok.concentric.net [64.1.16.152]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id KAA06543; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BA753FF.98ADE15E@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:02:40 -0500 From: Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill Reply-To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" Subject: Re: Help? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5734 Status: RO X-Status: David, I responded to the group: I've been meaning to write that letter but have been traveling: I got home Sunday morning in time to go to church at St. Matthew, then went to Quaker meeting Sunday night. I've been trying to catch up on e-mail and telephone messages, but it has been slow work. Please don't take David A's messages as a personal attack (they seemed like a personal attack to me - I was disturbed when I read his comments and didn't know how to respond without being in a "friendship war"), but as a way that David has to express his voice. He has the right to his deeply-felt opinions (they are not mine) although I can ignore them. I suspect that if you change the subject you will find that he is still your friend: he needs to have his opinions honored as you need yours honored. He doesn't seem to honor your opinions and visions (you shared a touching dream). You do have the opportunity to honor his opinions (and from what little I have read, I believe you have). Do not be discouraged. Take heart. Remember how many people were upset by my comments at the lecture you attended. Sometimes prophets upset people. Okay. And, changing the subject may be difficult, because this is all most of us are thinking about. Anyway, I honor you and welcome more of your thoughts. If you can express your next vision or dream without being defensive to the responses of others, your voice will become more powerful. blessings, Cheryl "David D. Eisenstein" wrote: > Hi, > > I wrote the ff. message, which I am sending only to you three. I am > confused and upset with Mr. Ackerman's responses, and I frankly feel angry > with him. I feel perhaps a war of sorts has come into being between him > and me, but it may be only me. Here I seem to want to preach peace and > forgiveness and love, but then cannot bring myself to practice it when > someone disagrees with such preachings. > > So I ask you, Cheryl, Jeff, Val -- any of you who wish to respond. > Can you answer the following questions or assertions -- the publication of > which to David Ackerman might only inflame or exacerbate already existing > hurt feelings somewhere? (Which is why I don't send it to him nor his > girlfriend ... and I don't send it to Lucrecia because I sense she gets > unhealthy glee from viewing or creating controversy, and do not feel it > would be helpful to share it with her at this time.) > > And can you let me know -- do you, too, question my judgment in the > previous posting(s), as David Ackerman does? Am I out of line to feel > anger with David? If I feel his trespass, where do I start forgiveness? I > sense attempted apology from him, but do not feel ready to accept it yet. > > --- (proposed letter to entire group, and to you 3 now) --- > > Am I the only one here who believes we can or should present views > alternative to those who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- > who seem to let (or promote) anger, threats, goals of retribution and > revenge against terrorists to be carrying the day? > > Are there any alternatives to violence that we as a nation, or as > Christians, or as individuals, have? Is this whole thing really about > retribution and revenge, making sure we use swords to kill those who use > swords against us -- or perhaps even using them before others can use > them, in a pre-emptive strike against our enemies as a defense? For > national security, doncha know? > > Are peaceful solutions really pointless? Outdated? > > Does no one on this email list care about reducing or healing cycles where > violence and misunderstanding beget more violence and misunderstanding? > > "He has shown you, O man, what is good; > And what does the LORD require of you > But to do justly, > To love mercy, > And to walk humbly with your God?" > Micah 6:8 > > Perhaps "just war" and "loving mercy" are the same things in God's eyes? > > To continue Micah: > > The LORD's voice cries to the city-- > Wisdom shall see Your name: > > "Hear the rod! > Who has appointed it? > Are there yet the treasures of wickedness > In the house of the wicked, > And the short measure that is an abomination? > Shall I count pure those with the wicked scales, > And with the bag of deceitful weights? > For her rich men are full of violence, > Her inhabitants have spoken lies, > And their tongue is deceitful in their mount. > > "Therefore I will also make you sick by striking you, > By making you desolate because of your sins. > You shall eat, but not be satisfied; > Hunger shall be in your midst. > You may carry some away, but shall not save them; > And what you do rescue I will give over to the sword. > > "You shall sow, but not reap; > You shall tread the olives, but not anoint yourselves with oil; > And make sweet wine, but not drink wine. > For the statutes of Omri are kept; > All the works of Ahab's house are done; > And you walk in their counsels, > That I may make you a desolation, > And your inhabitants a hissing. > Therefore you shall bear the reproach of My people." > Micah 6:9-16 > > Confused, > David Eisenstein -- Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill (405) 741-3542 Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C. Follow this link daily to "Donate Free Food" From chehill@concentric.net Tue Sep 18 09:10:00 2001 Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8IE9xu26521; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:09:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.198.83]) by darius.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f8IE9q009485 ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Errors-To: Received: from concentric.net (ts003d44.okc-ok.concentric.net [64.1.16.152]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id KAA08265; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BA754B7.B7B88CED@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:05:44 -0500 From: Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill Reply-To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" CC: Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , "Cheryl L. Hill" , Jeff Brotemarkle , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw Subject: Sand or Stone? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1617 Status: RO X-Status: > Sand or Stone? > > A story tells that two friends were walking through the > desert. In a specific point of the journey, they had an argument, and > one friend slapped the other one in the face. > > The one, who got slapped, was hurt, but without anything to > say, he wrote in the sand: TODAY, MY BEST FRIEND SLAPPED ME IN > THE FACE. > > They kept on walking, until they found an oasis, where they > decided to take a bath. The one who got slapped and hurt started > drowning, and the other friend saved him. When he recovered from the fright, he wrote on a stone: > TODAY MY BEST FRIEND SAVED MY LIFE. > > The friend who saved and slapped his best friend, asked > him, "Why, after I hurt you, you wrote in the sand, and now you > write on a stone?" > > The other friend, smiling, replied: "When a friend hurts > us, we should write it down in the sand, where the winds of forgiveness > get in charge of erasing it away, and when something great > happens, we should engrave it in the stone of the memory of the heart, > where no wind can erase it." > > Learn to write in the sand. -- Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill (405) 741-3542 Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C. Follow this link daily to "Donate Free Food" From chehill@concentric.net Tue Sep 18 09:17:54 2001 Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8IEHru27782; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:17:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.198.83]) by darius.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f8IEHj013096 ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Errors-To: Received: from concentric.net (ts003d44.okc-ok.concentric.net [64.1.16.152]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id KAA12083; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BA7568F.2725D96D@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:13:35 -0500 From: Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill Reply-To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" CC: Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , "Cheryl L. Hill" , Jeff Brotemarkle , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw Subject: Re: A cry References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------883A69B5E728BDE1CE67AEB8" Content-Length: 7654 Status: RO X-Status: --------------883A69B5E728BDE1CE67AEB8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRESS RELEASE 17 September 2001 CONTACT: Anne Hamilton: 703-522-7757 or FATHER OF OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING VICTIM TO SPEAK IN DC AREA Bud Welch, whose daughter Julie Marie Welch was killed in the Oklahoma City Bombing, will speak about his experiences in dealing with the aftermath of terrorism at Bishop Ireton High School in Alexandria at 7pm on September 23, 2001. The event is free and open to the public. Interrupted Tuesday (9/11/01) in his journey to D.C. for an anti-death penalty rally which was scheduled for that afternoon, Welch watched yet another story of terror unfold on TV screens and relived his worst nightmare, but he remains unshaken in his quest to remove revenge from the equation of responses to the horrific events. Welch, who gradually evolved from being a death penalty proponent to an ardent and public advocate of forgiveness in the year following his daughter's death, will share his perspective and offer details of his personal journey from the desire for vengeance to the healing of forgiveness. Under the sponsorship of Bishop Ireton High School, Our Lady Queen of Peace parish, the Arlington Unitarian Church, Virginians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty (VADP), and Murder Victim's Families for Reconciliation (MVFR), Welch will address a topic rendered significantly more urgent by events of last week. This engagement was scheduled prior to September 11, and follows Welch's September 22 speech to a Catholic youth ministry conference where attendance will be limited to youth ministry participants, several of whom were directly affected by last week's attacks. Biographical information of Welch can be found at and . Photo and interview opportunities will be available before and after the event. Please contact Anne V. Hamilton at 703-522-7757 or at for further information. WHO: Bud Welch & YOU WHAT: Public Speaking Event - Free to Public, Ample Parking WHEN: Sunday, September 23 at 7 p.m. WHERE: Bishop Ireton High School, 201 Cambridge Road, Alexandria, VA (off Duke Street near 495) NOTE: Although Welch has confirmed this speaking engagement post-WTC bombing, his travel arrangements are not yet set. Please call the above number should intervening events call into question his ability to travel here from Oklahoma City. ******* SENT BY: Abraham J. Bonowitz Director, CUADP ******************************************************** YES FRIENDS! There is an Alternative to the Death Penalty Citizens United for Alternatives to the Death Penalty (CUADP) works to end the death penalty in the United States through aggressive campaigns of public education and the promotion of tactical grassroots activism. Visit or call 800-973-6548 ******************************************************** -- Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill (405) 741-3542 Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C. Follow this link daily to "Donate Free Food" --------------883A69B5E728BDE1CE67AEB8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRESS RELEASE

17 September 2001
CONTACT: Anne Hamilton: 703-522-7757 or <annet@erols.com>

FATHER OF OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING VICTIM TO SPEAK IN DC AREA

Bud Welch, whose daughter Julie Marie Welch was killed in the Oklahoma City Bombing, will speak about his experiences in dealing with the aftermath of terrorism at Bishop Ireton High School in Alexandria at 7pm on September 23, 2001. The event is free and open to the public.

Interrupted Tuesday (9/11/01) in his journey to D.C. for an anti-death penalty rally which was scheduled for that afternoon, Welch watched yet another story of terror unfold on TV screens and relived his worst nightmare, but he remains unshaken in his quest to remove revenge from the
equation of responses to the horrific events. Welch, who gradually evolved from being a death penalty proponent to an ardent and public advocate of forgiveness in the year following his daughter's death, will share his perspective and offer details of his personal journey from the desire for
vengeance to the healing of forgiveness.

Under the sponsorship of Bishop Ireton High School, Our Lady Queen of Peace parish, the Arlington Unitarian Church, Virginians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty (VADP), and Murder Victim's Families for Reconciliation (MVFR), Welch will address a topic rendered significantly more urgent by
events of last week. This engagement was scheduled prior to September 11, and follows Welch's September 22 speech to a Catholic youth ministry conference where attendance will be limited to youth ministry participants, several of whom were directly affected by last week's attacks.

Biographical information of Welch can be found at <http://www.mvfr.org> and
<http://www.fadp.org/flm_bios>.

Photo and interview opportunities will be available before and after the event. Please contact Anne V. Hamilton at 703-522-7757 or at <annet@erols.com> for further information.

WHO: Bud Welch & YOU
WHAT: Public Speaking Event - Free to Public, Ample Parking
WHEN: Sunday, September 23 at 7 p.m.
WHERE: Bishop Ireton High School, 201 Cambridge Road, Alexandria, VA (off Duke Street near 495)

NOTE: Although Welch has confirmed this speaking engagement post-WTC bombing, his travel arrangements are not yet set. Please call the above number should intervening events call into question his ability to travel here from Oklahoma City.
 

*******

SENT BY:
 

Abraham J. Bonowitz
Director, CUADP

********************************************************
                       YES FRIENDS!
       There is an Alternative to the Death Penalty

   Citizens United for Alternatives to the Death Penalty
   (CUADP) works to end the death penalty in the United
  States through aggressive campaigns of public education
    and the promotion of tactical grassroots activism.

    Visit <http://www.cuadp.org> or call 800-973-6548
********************************************************

--
Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill
<cheryllhill@yahoo.com>
(405) 741-3542
Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps
will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims
and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C.  Follow this link
daily to "Donate Free Food" <http://www.thehungersite.com>
  --------------883A69B5E728BDE1CE67AEB8-- From deisenst@coin.org Tue Sep 18 15:14:10 2001 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:14:09 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" Reply-To: "David D. Eisenstein" To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com Subject: A personal journey (if you will); Re: Help? In-Reply-To: <3BA753FF.98ADE15E@concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Dear Cheryl, Thank you so much and bless you for your response to the group and to me! It means very much to me to have your affirmation. I don't feel quite so crazy nor alone in my way of thinking now. I have felt sorta' crazy and alone, even despite many local friends giving me rave reviews about the poem, "A Cry." One other insight that William Sloane Coffin gives in the 1983 lecture which I quoted in a "Re: A Cry" response to the group and David A., is this: "Said a fellow, 'Thou has not half the power to do me harm as I have to be hurt.' And to quote St. Augustine ..., 'Imagine the vanity of thinking your enemy can do you more damage than your enmity.'" --Speech, "Who is the Enemy?", delivered Apr 8 1983 in Kansas City, by William Sloane Coffin, Jr. There is a sick fixation that can develop on events which cause hurt. If you will, a thrill of anger, a joy of desire to harm who harmed me. I have read and re-read David's response to the "A Cry" note many more times, and each time I re-read it, I become more convinced that he did indeed attack -- which presupposes something worth attacking for. Maybe a very strong identification with the government or patriotism ... maybe so strong that he could take any perceived attack of the government's action as an attack on himself. Every time I re-read it, I become angrier, and more willing to strike out in turn at him. But when I think about it, I am *not* convinced that he was doing well when he wrote it -- that he *normally* would not have intended to hurt me; and that if there were intention to hurt or shame me, it may have come from something else eating him. Then I realize: Who is forcing me to re-read this stuff? Who indeed is rubbing my nose in it? No one but me. And I have the choice to let go of the obsessive need to read and re-read that which hurts me ... to let go of the need to feel hurt and create justification for escalated anger and desire for retribution that comes of a feeling of being treated hurtfully or unfairly. But why stop there? Actually, this need to feel hurt is so much deeper and broader than just this one incident. I choose to hold close to my heart all the many hurts I have received over a lifetime. My psychiatrist calls me an "injury collector." Making a habit or hobby out of collecting injuries can help justify my hiding, my feeling afraid of the world, my despair of the usefulness of growing up, of becoming responsible. It justifies and perpetuates my mental illness(es) -- my depressions and lonelinesses, and sadnesses. It keeps me from the joy of knowing God. Maybe? It keeps me from true self-realization. Maybe? I can truly fear because I have been hurt. I can believe the worst is possible in humans. And I can, in turn, then hurt because of my fear, because of my jealousy of others who obviously don't fear the world the way I do, and who seem to be a lot happier and more comfortable than I am. Being accused or hurt by a friend ... perhaps this is a signal event to help thinking and lovingkindness take over -- to think through what, in- deed, it is to be hurt, and how or whether to recover from it. Perhaps God is saying, "Get over it! I need you!" Perhaps my friend David, too, is saying, "Get over it! I need you!" There may be things in his personal life I may not be aware of, which are hurting him. My friend Angelo was the first to suggest that ... and maybe David needs understanding and love. "It is when we act the worst, when we need the most lovin'." Maybe David needs more lovin'? How to I tell hurt, my constant companion -- fear, my constant companion -- to go away? It is hard to let go of these companions. They're like old friends, but they don't serve me any more. What should die that I might live? Hatred? Jealousy? How do I let go? Do I need to? Does any of this make sense, my friend Cheryl? Your friend, David Eisenstein From chehill@concentric.net Wed Sep 19 01:07:06 2001 Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8J675u17750 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:07:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi.concentric.net [206.173.118.71]) by uhura.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f8J674r12533 ; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Errors-To: Received: from concentric.net (ts004d48.okc-ok.concentric.net [64.1.16.204]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id CAA19580; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BA83516.D298434F@concentric.net> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:03:02 -0500 From: Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill Reply-To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" Subject: Re: A personal journey (if you will); Re: Help? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6649 Status: RO X-Status: David, You always make absolute sense to me. Even in times past when you have been perplexed with my gift of interupting you, when some of my traits have irritated you, your response to these things has made perfect sense to me. I think that your great integrity and truthful spirit (your poem was real and vulnerable) threatens some (most?) people. And, since you are real (but a bit insecure because there are so few real people in the world) you are vunerable and easily hurt. My prayer is that you can continue to be real, vunerable, candid and bold. My prayer is that you will begin to stop worrying about what people think about you and just concentrate on being true to yourself and to your God. You are a great gift, I keep telling you that. Some day you are going to believe me. And even if no one else in the world can see it but me and you, we will be confident. You are gifted. You are a prophet. Remember what happens to gifted prophets? They get killed. I am a prophet, too, but I realize that I will be able to speak with the greatest and most powerful voice when I am able to continually learn from people around me, but care more about being faithful to God than I care about having friends. Humility balanced with conviction and confidence. Now, I am grateful that my affirmation meant much to you. Please remember that God affirms you even if I don't one day. I am getting to the point where affirmation helps but is not necessary. Some day, when I find something to disagree with you about (don't hold your breath), I hope that you will persist in teaching me. (Incidently, I do try to count to at least two after some people finish speaking before I jump in there. Especially when I talk to my dad. But, there are some people who speak the same "interruption" language as I do, and its fun to have an interruption party with those folks. I notice the inappropriateness of my tendency to interrupt most vividly at Quaker meetings. very unquakerly to interrupt. . .) Thank you for sharing your life with me. Cheryl "David D. Eisenstein" wrote: > Dear Cheryl, > > Thank you so much and bless you for your response to the group and to me! > It means very much to me to have your affirmation. I don't feel quite so > crazy nor alone in my way of thinking now. I have felt sorta' crazy and > alone, even despite many local friends giving me rave reviews about the > poem, "A Cry." > > One other insight that William Sloane Coffin gives in the 1983 lecture > which I quoted in a "Re: A Cry" response to the group and David A., is > this: > > "Said a fellow, 'Thou has not half the power to do me harm > as I have to be hurt.' And to quote St. Augustine ..., > 'Imagine the vanity of thinking your enemy can do you more > damage than your enmity.'" > --Speech, "Who is the Enemy?", delivered Apr 8 1983 > in Kansas City, by William Sloane Coffin, Jr. > > > There is a sick fixation that can develop on events which cause hurt. If > you will, a thrill of anger, a joy of desire to harm who harmed me. I > have read and re-read David's response to the "A Cry" note many more > times, and each time I re-read it, I become more convinced that he did > indeed attack -- which presupposes something worth attacking for. Maybe a > very strong identification with the government or patriotism ... maybe so > strong that he could take any perceived attack of the government's action > as an attack on himself. > > Every time I re-read it, I become angrier, and more willing to strike out > in turn at him. But when I think about it, I am *not* convinced that he > was doing well when he wrote it -- that he *normally* would not have > intended to hurt me; and that if there were intention to hurt or shame > me, it may have come from something else eating him. > > Then I realize: Who is forcing me to re-read this stuff? Who indeed is > rubbing my nose in it? No one but me. And I have the choice to let go of > the obsessive need to read and re-read that which hurts me ... to let go > of the need to feel hurt and create justification for escalated anger and > desire for retribution that comes of a feeling of being treated hurtfully > or unfairly. > > But why stop there? Actually, this need to feel hurt is so much deeper > and broader than just this one incident. I choose to hold close to my > heart all the many hurts I have received over a lifetime. My psychiatrist > calls me an "injury collector." Making a habit or hobby out of collecting > injuries can help justify my hiding, my feeling afraid of the world, my > despair of the usefulness of growing up, of becoming responsible. It > justifies and perpetuates my mental illness(es) -- my depressions and > lonelinesses, and sadnesses. > > It keeps me from the joy of knowing God. Maybe? It keeps me from true > self-realization. Maybe? I can truly fear because I have been hurt. I > can believe the worst is possible in humans. And I can, in turn, then > hurt because of my fear, because of my jealousy of others who obviously > don't fear the world the way I do, and who seem to be a lot happier and > more comfortable than I am. > > Being accused or hurt by a friend ... perhaps this is a signal event to > help thinking and lovingkindness take over -- to think through what, in- > deed, it is to be hurt, and how or whether to recover from it. > > Perhaps God is saying, "Get over it! I need you!" Perhaps my friend > David, too, is saying, "Get over it! I need you!" There may be things in > his personal life I may not be aware of, which are hurting him. My friend > Angelo was the first to suggest that ... and maybe David needs > understanding and love. "It is when we act the worst, when we need the > most lovin'." Maybe David needs more lovin'? > > How to I tell hurt, my constant companion -- fear, my constant companion > -- to go away? It is hard to let go of these companions. They're like > old friends, but they don't serve me any more. What should die that I > might live? Hatred? Jealousy? How do I let go? Do I need to? > > Does any of this make sense, my friend Cheryl? > > Your friend, > David Eisenstein -- Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill (405) 741-3542 Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C. Follow this link daily to "Donate Free Food" From vhinshaw@coin.org Wed Sep 19 15:44:14 2001 Received: from coin.org (coin-as2-07.coin.org [207.160.150.102]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8JKi8u28917 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:44:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3BA4040D.4BC228F0@coin.org> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:44:46 -1000 From: val hinshaw X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" Subject: Re: Help? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4587 Status: RO X-Status: dear David: I don't know what went on between you and Mr. Ackerman, but you are right on re: retaliation or peace and justice. Have just read a message about a little girls' idea of "feeding the monsters" (in the forest. The author wondered why Geo Bush didn't take the 40 billion o r part of it--and build a beautiful mosque in Kabul and feed the hungry and see whether that might not change people and their desire for violence. You know Ghandi did say something about "an eye for an eye" created a blind society (or something to that effect. Write more poetry, then go for a walk, preferably in a lovely park or near a stream. Fondly, Val "David D. Eisenstein" wrote: > Hi, > > I wrote the ff. message, which I am sending only to you three. I am > confused and upset with Mr. Ackerman's responses, and I frankly feel angry > with him. I feel perhaps a war of sorts has come into being between him > and me, but it may be only me. Here I seem to want to preach peace and > forgiveness and love, but then cannot bring myself to practice it when > someone disagrees with such preachings. > > So I ask you, Cheryl, Jeff, Val -- any of you who wish to respond. > Can you answer the following questions or assertions -- the publication of > which to David Ackerman might only inflame or exacerbate already existing > hurt feelings somewhere? (Which is why I don't send it to him nor his > girlfriend ... and I don't send it to Lucrecia because I sense she gets > unhealthy glee from viewing or creating controversy, and do not feel it > would be helpful to share it with her at this time.) > > And can you let me know -- do you, too, question my judgment in the > previous posting(s), as David Ackerman does? Am I out of line to feel > anger with David? If I feel his trespass, where do I start forgiveness? I > sense attempted apology from him, but do not feel ready to accept it yet. > > --- (proposed letter to entire group, and to you 3 now) --- > > Am I the only one here who believes we can or should present views > alternative to those who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- > who seem to let (or promote) anger, threats, goals of retribution and > revenge against terrorists to be carrying the day? > > Are there any alternatives to violence that we as a nation, or as > Christians, or as individuals, have? Is this whole thing really about > retribution and revenge, making sure we use swords to kill those who use > swords against us -- or perhaps even using them before others can use > them, in a pre-emptive strike against our enemies as a defense? For > national security, doncha know? > > Are peaceful solutions really pointless? Outdated? > > Does no one on this email list care about reducing or healing cycles where > violence and misunderstanding beget more violence and misunderstanding? > > "He has shown you, O man, what is good; > And what does the LORD require of you > But to do justly, > To love mercy, > And to walk humbly with your God?" > Micah 6:8 > > Perhaps "just war" and "loving mercy" are the same things in God's eyes? > > To continue Micah: > > The LORD's voice cries to the city-- > Wisdom shall see Your name: > > "Hear the rod! > Who has appointed it? > Are there yet the treasures of wickedness > In the house of the wicked, > And the short measure that is an abomination? > Shall I count pure those with the wicked scales, > And with the bag of deceitful weights? > For her rich men are full of violence, > Her inhabitants have spoken lies, > And their tongue is deceitful in their mount. > > "Therefore I will also make you sick by striking you, > By making you desolate because of your sins. > You shall eat, but not be satisfied; > Hunger shall be in your midst. > You may carry some away, but shall not save them; > And what you do rescue I will give over to the sword. > > "You shall sow, but not reap; > You shall tread the olives, but not anoint yourselves with oil; > And make sweet wine, but not drink wine. > For the statutes of Omri are kept; > All the works of Ahab's house are done; > And you walk in their counsels, > That I may make you a desolation, > And your inhabitants a hissing. > Therefore you shall bear the reproach of My people." > Micah 6:9-16 > > Confused, > David Eisenstein From david_ackerman@yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 16:19:49 2001 Received: from web11503.mail.yahoo.com (web11503.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.35]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8JLJmu04929 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:19:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <20010919192733.21830.qmail@web11503.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [128.206.103.138] by web11503.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:27:33 PDT Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ackerman Subject: An Appology To: "David " Eisenstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1001 Status: RO X-Status: Dear David, I hope that you might accept my apology. Are you still upset about the e-mail of the other day? I really didn't mean to call you unoatriotice. If I did, it was a grave mistake. I was just being a bit hawkish I suppose. (As I genuinely feel that peace isn't always the right answer. Though it is perhaps more often than not, and we certainly don't work hard enough to encourage it.) In any case, you're at least partly right. Mr. Bush seems increasingly to be "talking tough" or at least sticking his foot in his mouth. (Though it remains my hope that he's not really driving right at the moment.) In any case, please forgive me. I wish to entertain debate, not bash on you and cast aspersions at you. Sincerely, David Ackerman __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From deisenst@coin.org Wed Sep 19 19:19:52 2001 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:19:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" Reply-To: "David D. Eisenstein" To: David Ackerman Subject: Re: An Appology In-Reply-To: <20010919192733.21830.qmail@web11503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Dear David, Don't worry. You haven't gotten rid of me yet. ;-) There have been some things to process over here, a few things of my own to work through. You are helping me work through them, and in a way or ways you may not even have realized. Truly great friendships survive disagreements or disagreeable feelings or actions. I find that every time I am upset or hurt by someone, it gives me an additional opportunity to learn about love, forgiveness, relating, repairing, understanding, and relinquishing hurt feelings. Of all those opportunities, it is the last (relinquishing hurt feelings) that comes hardest to me -- because I am, as my psychiatrist says, an "injury collector." But it is strife, difficulties, uncomfortable situations, which test character. You and our situation has helped give me helpful pause and opportunity to reflect -- that if I preach peace, love, forgiveness, and then get pissed off when someone disagrees with me -- that I am truly as much of a warmaker as those who get pissed off about things on a grander scale. As I am unwilling to be a hypocrite -- and as I love you too much as a friend anyway -- I could not turn away from our friendship, nor fail to forgive you. Besides, you help me too much. :-) I did become very angry, David; and I hate to admit how angry that was, but I don't think it will hurt for you to know now. I was angry enough to *want* to hurt you, to *want* to strike back at what I perceived as an attack. I was amazed, because it certainly revealed just how like I am to those war-mongers I protest so much. Oh, the irony of it all. So I have given it a few days, counselled with a few other friends about it, thought, prayed, and have come to the conclusion that this whole thing is just damned funny! But I begin to believe, and very strongly, that if I can forgive what truly is a slight by you ... then I can learn to forgive other things as well ... things that I have held closely all my life ... a lifetime of misery and hurt ... forgive the failings of others who cannot forgive much larger things ... and can help "normalize" at least our relationship, yours and mine, David. If I cannot make BenLadem, or whatever scapegoat(s) the government next chooses, love me or my country, if I even have trouble loving him or Saddam or Hitler or any of these other yahoos, it doesn't mean I have to stop trying. It is, I think, for a reason that God or Jesus asks this of us. It sure helps me when upset with a friend. I felt that you were angry in your first response, David. As if you personalized and strongly identified with the actions proposed or taken at that time by government -- and so assumed personal attack. But anger shown in one frame of reference can bleed over from others ... and it leads me to ask you if you doing ok, David? I cannot help but wonder if there are tensions or hurts in your life outside of International Terrorist Incidents ... hurting you or eating at you? Is there anything I can do, if so? Do you need a listening ear? Call me if you need ... even collect: (314) 890-9294. I love you, my friend David. God bless you! Sincerely, David Eisenstein On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, David Ackerman wrote: > Dear David, > I hope that you might accept my apology. Are you > still upset about the e-mail of the other day? I > really didn't mean to call you unoatriotice. If I did, > it was a grave mistake. I was just being a bit hawkish > I suppose. (As I genuinely feel that peace isn't > always the right answer. Though it is perhaps more > often than not, and we certainly don't work hard > enough to encourage it.) In any case, you're at least > partly right. Mr. Bush seems increasingly to be > "talking tough" or at least sticking his foot in his > mouth. (Though it remains my hope that he's not really > driving right at the moment.) In any case, please > forgive me. I wish to entertain debate, not bash on > you and cast aspersions at you. > Sincerely, > David Ackerman > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > From jbrotema Thu Sep 20 08:50:09 2001 Received: (from jbrotema@localhost) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8KDo8008588; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:50:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:50:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeff Brotemarkle To: "David D. Eisenstein" cc: "Cheryl L. Hill" , Val Hinshaw Subject: Re: Help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 5651 Status: RO X-Status: Like you, I am concerned over our nation's present rhetoric, which, if translated into all the actions that are proposed, would destroy all life on earth. I believe your thoughts to be relatives of the divine family of thoughts, & that that family is the most sublime of all values. However, God has created the rest of the world beside himself so well and with such complexity that there are other real values that will not fit on even his own scale. There are a number of such other values, any number of such values that is convenient for the mind would serve the purpose of being the intermediary that works out the implications of the fact that God exists; these imlications are what constitute the created universe. I use 7 such values, but any number greater than 3 and less than 13 or so would both fulfull the need for sufficient complexity without overwhelming the mind which must use these concepts as tools. Ackerman is not arguing from the divine point of view but from the point of view of air, of intellect. & God would have had an easier time of it had he given free will only to his own scale of value and not also to the other six. But all 7 have such free will & for any decision or action to be stable, all 7 must be brought to the conference table and made to argue it over until all agree. All of these values, the one uncreated, the other six created, are real values that cannot be reduced to epiphenomenom of any of the others. None of them can be dismissed, all of them must be convinced, or you are right, we will surely destroy ourselves. On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, David D. Eisenstein wrote: > Hi, > > I wrote the ff. message, which I am sending only to you three. I am > confused and upset with Mr. Ackerman's responses, and I frankly feel angry > with him. I feel perhaps a war of sorts has come into being between him > and me, but it may be only me. Here I seem to want to preach peace and > forgiveness and love, but then cannot bring myself to practice it when > someone disagrees with such preachings. > > So I ask you, Cheryl, Jeff, Val -- any of you who wish to respond. > Can you answer the following questions or assertions -- the publication of > which to David Ackerman might only inflame or exacerbate already existing > hurt feelings somewhere? (Which is why I don't send it to him nor his > girlfriend ... and I don't send it to Lucrecia because I sense she gets > unhealthy glee from viewing or creating controversy, and do not feel it > would be helpful to share it with her at this time.) > > And can you let me know -- do you, too, question my judgment in the > previous posting(s), as David Ackerman does? Am I out of line to feel > anger with David? If I feel his trespass, where do I start forgiveness? I > sense attempted apology from him, but do not feel ready to accept it yet. > > --- (proposed letter to entire group, and to you 3 now) --- > > Am I the only one here who believes we can or should present views > alternative to those who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- > who seem to let (or promote) anger, threats, goals of retribution and > revenge against terrorists to be carrying the day? > > Are there any alternatives to violence that we as a nation, or as > Christians, or as individuals, have? Is this whole thing really about > retribution and revenge, making sure we use swords to kill those who use > swords against us -- or perhaps even using them before others can use > them, in a pre-emptive strike against our enemies as a defense? For > national security, doncha know? > > Are peaceful solutions really pointless? Outdated? > > Does no one on this email list care about reducing or healing cycles where > violence and misunderstanding beget more violence and misunderstanding? > > "He has shown you, O man, what is good; > And what does the LORD require of you > But to do justly, > To love mercy, > And to walk humbly with your God?" > Micah 6:8 > > Perhaps "just war" and "loving mercy" are the same things in God's eyes? > > To continue Micah: > > The LORD's voice cries to the city-- > Wisdom shall see Your name: > > "Hear the rod! > Who has appointed it? > Are there yet the treasures of wickedness > In the house of the wicked, > And the short measure that is an abomination? > Shall I count pure those with the wicked scales, > And with the bag of deceitful weights? > For her rich men are full of violence, > Her inhabitants have spoken lies, > And their tongue is deceitful in their mount. > > "Therefore I will also make you sick by striking you, > By making you desolate because of your sins. > You shall eat, but not be satisfied; > Hunger shall be in your midst. > You may carry some away, but shall not save them; > And what you do rescue I will give over to the sword. > > "You shall sow, but not reap; > You shall tread the olives, but not anoint yourselves with oil; > And make sweet wine, but not drink wine. > For the statutes of Omri are kept; > All the works of Ahab's house are done; > And you walk in their counsels, > That I may make you a desolation, > And your inhabitants a hissing. > Therefore you shall bear the reproach of My people." > Micah 6:9-16 > > > Confused, > David Eisenstein > > > Jeff Brotemarkle "The first step [in the monastic life] is the total acceptance of all the parts of our being -- body and soul, mind and instinct, emotions and will, in order to give all to God in the harmony of a balanced and spiritualized personality." -- Thomas Merton From jbrotema Thu Sep 20 09:11:20 2001 Received: (from jbrotema@localhost) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8KEBIw11897; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:11:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:11:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeff Brotemarkle To: "Cheryl L. Hill" cc: "David D. Eisenstein" , Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw Subject: Re: A cry In-Reply-To: <3BA75102.69DD2FD6@concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 6345 Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill wrote: > Dear David E., > > I've been traveling home from Montana to Oklahoma City. I haven't had a > chance to read the other RE: A CRY messages, but want you to know how very > much I appreciate your thoughts here. It helps me feel like you were > listening to my heart and understood my mind as I spoke about the need for > Restorative Justice in Oklahoma City. The world needs discipline (teaching > how to do the right thing - sometimes incarceration and destroying *stuff* is > the best way to teach people) when some of its children behave so badly, but > punishment and retriubution (wanting to hurt or destroy *people* because they > have hurt me) is all too easy a substitute. > > So, what can we do? We can try to respond to the "wars" that will erupt in > our own friendship circles. I am very concerned about people living in the > United States who "appear" to be from the middle east. There are already > terrible stories about neighbors seeking revenge upon their U.S. neighbors. > At a Quaker meeting I attended, in which the words of your dream would have > been very welcome, an eleven year old girl, Laura, and I worked to bring into > being a vision that another woman had. The woman said that she saw a vision > of lapel buttons with Jesus' face and outstreached arms and a message with > something like, "Some of the world's greatest leaders are from the Middle > East." Oh my, that's good. I want to order such a button. & if I cannot find one readymade, I will work to manifest my own copy of such a button myself. > Laura and I and Rex, Laura's dad, struggled to refine the statement. > We designed a button that is still in progress that will have red, white, and > blue on it saying, "In the midst of rumors of war, American Christians > remember that The Prince of Peace is from the Middle East: Love your Middle > Eastern Neighbor as Yourself * September 11, 2001." > Uh, I am thinking of modifying the vision for my button, too, simply because I cannot think of where I would find a picture of Jesus with outstretched arms, but can think of a source for a button sized copy of the print of Jesus I use on my home altar. But I don't think I'd alter one word of the given worded message. Much of its power to immediately move my heart and make me smile derives from its simplicity. The immediate impression I get from your alteration is that I ought to obey an external command to obey the law of God. > Anyway, so I think what we can do is what you have done: create poetry, art, > and messages of care for the world. Thank you for sharing your voice. Others > may not agree with what you have written here, but I do. Absolutely. > > I am recovering from being away from my home for a month, and I am preparing a > training event for the Volunteer Legal Center this Saturday. I will return > your telephone call as soon as I can. Pray for my kitty Paraclete. She is > very sick. > > Also, if you feel lonely in your perspective in this crisis, read some of the > remarks of Untied States bishops and Christian leaders around the world, and > you will know that you are not alone. Love > your enemies: Do good to those who hate you. > > blessings, > > Cheryl > > > > "David D. Eisenstein" wrote: > > > Having had an incredible dream last night, of attending a holy service and > > participating in sacred holy rites foreign to me, inspiration came to > > write this: > > > > ---- ---- ---- > > > > It is never too soon to beat swords > > into plough-shares. > > > > It is never too soon to declare > > "war no more." > > > > We can come through this crisis > > with a leadership unheard of before > > with potential for peace and sensitivity > > never before demonstrated in such a scale. > > > > There are so many ways > > we can be talked into mindless fighting, > > senseless bloodshed, stupid retribution, > > that will feed the evil, glorify the wrong, > > justify violent means pursued by the unenlightened, > > and perpetuate the slumber of intelligent > > holiness, the slumber of regard and love for > > fellow humans. > > > > But we can choose to awaken, to be above base, > > instinctual desires. > > > > How can convictions of peace and human brotherhood > > overcome senseless war-mongering? > > > > What would Jesus do? > > > > ---- ---- ---- ---- > > > > Before writing this, and after awakening from this awesome, peaceful > > dream, I was filled with conviction that we people, citizens, need to make > > sure that calming, cooling, intelligently-loving words need to come to the > > attention of our heads of state -- George W. Bush, and others with > > tremendous authority to make huge decisions. If so, how? George's > > mother, Barbara Bush, came to mind, as a possible way to communicate such > > concern, with need for caution and calm conviction of the reality of > > holiness to help make sane decisions. > > > > Have you, my fellow members of Habadasher Soup, any thoughts or plans on > > how we can help present views alternative to those of retired generals and > > joint-chiefs, who seem to want us to do "something, anything," -- who seem > > to let (or promote) anger, threats, to be carrying the day? What > > alternatives to violence have we, and how can we get them heard or > > broadcast and humbly considered by human powers? > > > > Love, > > David > > -- > Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill > > (405) 741-3542 > Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps > will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims > and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C. Follow this link > daily to "Donate Free Food" > > > Jeff Brotemarkle "The first step [in the monastic life] is the total acceptance of all the parts of our being -- body and soul, mind and instinct, emotions and will, in order to give all to God in the harmony of a balanced and spiritualized personality." -- Thomas Merton From jbrotema Thu Sep 20 09:18:12 2001 Received: (from jbrotema@localhost) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8KEIBT13062; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:18:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:18:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeff Brotemarkle To: "David D. Eisenstein" Subject: ps Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 1079 Status: RO X-Status: A Ackerman also argues from a scale of values I forgot to mention, the scale of life, creaturliness, or what the natives of India call maya, the divine play. One of the lessons of this point of view is that God loves music, so much so that He sets us all up as musicians who continuously play such music. The lower octaves of such music are called dance, and even more generally, motion. In this eternal symphony we are only allowed brief rest notes before we are compelled by the nature of this value to continue playing. God wants this music to continue, & in solving any problem at the council table so that a good resolution for good action may result, the representative of maya, the divine music, must be as satisfied as the other values. Jeff Brotemarkle "The first step [in the monastic life] is the total acceptance of all the parts of our being -- body and soul, mind and instinct, emotions and will, in order to give all to God in the harmony of a balanced and spiritualized personality." -- Thomas Merton From david_ackerman@yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 18:36:00 2001 Received: from web11508.mail.yahoo.com (web11508.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.40]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8KNZxt01500 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:35:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <20010920233559.41092.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [128.206.103.147] by web11508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:35:59 PDT Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:35:59 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ackerman Subject: Further Appology To: deisenst@coin.org, jbrotema@coin.org, lculbe6495@aol.com, cheryllhill@yahoo.com, vhinshaw@coin.org, kcl78@yahoo.com Cc: Rhymes Moncure , Vlasta Hinshaw In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 3887 Status: RO X-Status: Dear David, I truly did not mean to slight your patriiotism. I suppose that I did react in anger, as I am wont to do sometimes. At the time, I felt the government had reacted supprisingly well, and with great consideration. I still feel that Mr. Powell is acting very carefully in a difficult situation, but I also believe in the idea of a just war. I'm perhaps a rather more militant pacifist than yourself. (And no, I don't believe that's contradictory.) Mr. McClellan quoted a friend of his in his coolumn the other day suggesting that if you want peace, fight for justice. Now, what he was saying was that we need to pursue justice on a much broader scale than simply arresting and trying Bin Laden, who is himself only a very small, and rather peripheral part of the problem of terrorism. His friend apparently suggested that we ought to fight for economic parity and religious tollerance in the Middle East. That we ought to seek to ensure that the common people in countries like Afghanistan have a chance to experience the freedoms that we enjoy, the freedoms of life, liberty, and property. I think that this is perhaps a good understanding of the situation in many nations that despise the United States and its policies. They perceive us as being forces not of justice, but of innequity, and perhaps inniquity. They see us as supporting opressive regimes, and possibly even terrorist states, (as many people believe Israel is so.) The problem that I see is this: we may not be able to influence the political processes in regimes that opress and engender this attitude towards us. If that is the case, then I see it as a necessary evil to go to war with opressive and violent regimes. We have done so before to good effect. I think it is no coincidence that some of our strongest allies are countries whose governments we defeated in battle where we then helped rebuild in the spirit of peace and brotherhood, helping to ensure that people there enjoyed the same basic freedoms that we do. But to do that, we have to disarm the opressive governments, which is almost never done without much loss of life. Am I so wrong to believe in the justice of helping others by protecting them from their oppresors, even if that should mean that we might have to fight thoise oppresors ourselves? Is there some fundamental flaw in my reasoning that I do not see? We have taken to seeing our nation as the worlds great policeman, but what we forgot in the Gulf ten years ago, was that policeman do more than just chase down suspected criminals, they help the victims of those crimes. We did little to help the biggest victims of Sadam Hussain, his people, and he did much to make them feel that we were attacking them, and not him. And this undoubtedly contributed to what happened last week. (As it was the Gulf War that led Bin Laden to launch his crusade against us in the first place.) In any case, I do ceratainly value your oppinion, and I would like to know how you feel about my thoughts. Thay are however, as always, simply thoughts. Sometimes near random meanderings. I send this for your consideration in peace and brotherhood, not as an attempt to disrespect your thoughts. It has always been my goal when involved in disagreement to allow myself to be open to truth when someone presnets it to me. It is my hope that we might reach consensus upon truth, whatever it may be. And I believe that we never know what it is, but can better approximate it amonst us than I can alone. So here is to reaching consensus, and understanding. It would be a great tragedy if my hasty and ill considered words came between us and serverd to divide. Sincerely, David Ackerman __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From deisenst@coin.org Fri Sep 21 01:13:14 2001 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:13:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: Jeff Brotemarkle Subject: Re: ps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Thanks, Jeff. You say that there is a scale of values caleed creaturliness or maya, the divine play. And that this represents some kind of lower octave, a dance? What are these values? Maya, the divine music -- what values does that represent? And you say there is a scale of values? What are the other values in the scale called, other than maya? And what do they mean? You speak here of things in a vague way that I am having trouble following. Are there specific emotions or value judgments which you are speaking of? Are they good? Bad? High? Low? Noble? Base? Intimate? Detached? Angry? Joyful? Near? Far? Wet? Dry? If you would elucidate, it might help me understand better. Thanks, Jeff! Your friend, David Eisenstein On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Jeff Brotemarkle wrote: > Ackerman also argues from a scale of values I forgot to mention, the scale > of life, creaturliness, or what the natives of India call maya, the divine > play. One of the lessons of this point of view is that God loves music, > so much so that He sets us all up as musicians who continuously play such > music. The lower octaves of such music are called dance, and even more > generally, motion. In this eternal symphony we are only allowed brief > rest notes before we are compelled by the nature of this value to continue > playing. God wants this music to continue, & in solving any problem at > the council table so that a good resolution for good action may result, > the representative of maya, the divine music, must be as satisfied as the > other values. > > > Jeff Brotemarkle > > "The first step [in the monastic life] is the total acceptance of all > the parts of our being -- body and soul, mind and instinct, emotions and > will, in order to give all to God in the harmony of a balanced and > spiritualized personality." > -- Thomas Merton > > From deisenst@coin.org Fri Sep 21 01:59:09 2001 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:59:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" Reply-To: "David D. Eisenstein" To: David Ackerman cc: jbrotema@coin.org, lculbe6495@aol.com, cheryllhill@yahoo.com, Vlasta Hinshaw , kcl78@yahoo.com, Rhymes Moncure Subject: Re: Further Appology In-Reply-To: <20010920233559.41092.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: "Imagine the vanity of thinking your enemy can do you more damage than your enmity." -- St. Augustine David and Habadashers, I submit for your consideration the essay (speech) by William Sloane Coffin, entitled "Who Is the Enemy?" It is from this speech that I quoted in an earlier note in reply to David Ackerman. It speaks more eloquently than I can about what I believe. It can be found at URL: . Enjoy. -David Eisenstein PS: David Ackerman: I appreciate your sharing your opinions and ideas with us. That is what Habadasher Soup is all about. Bear in mind, when you write here, you have as your audience: * the chair and two longtime members of the Columbia Interface Peace Alliance; * the convener and main speaker at a conference about Therapeutic Jurisprudence, a novel way to deal with the justice done to and for and with convicted criminals, with goals of dealing with criminals in healing and holistic ways rather than punishing ways, increasing the probability that they will be able to re-enter society well, whole, productively, and as good neighbors; * a couple of people who have worked for years for the Alternatives to Violence project, teaching prisoners (and others) ways to deal with problems/conflicts without invoking violence; * two United Methodist clergy, and a graduate of seminary who is ex- ploring becoming a chaplain. I rather doubt that among these recipients, you will find many who will avidly support *war* as a means to the end of ending oppressions, defusing totalitarian states, or creating liberties in other societies. We may, instead, tend towards the example of Mohandas Ghandi, of how to do this. But I will let others speak for themselves. David, if you wish to decrease the probability that hasty and ill- considered words may divide us, then don't write hasty and ill-considered words. Thanks. -dde From deisenst@coin.org Fri Sep 21 12:22:43 2001 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:22:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" Reply-To: "David D. Eisenstein" To: David Ackerman cc: jbrotema@coin.org, lculbe6495@aol.com, cheryllhill@yahoo.com, Vlasta Hinshaw , kcl78@yahoo.com, Rhymes Moncure Subject: More thoughts In-Reply-To: <20010920233559.41092.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Here are some responses. On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:35:59 -0500 (CDT), David Ackerman wrote: > Mr. McClellan quoted a friend of his in his coolumn > the other day suggesting that if you want peace, fight > for justice. Work for justice. Strive for justice. Give or enforce justice. Fight? Cheryl, you are the new lawyer here. What is the definition of "justice," from a legal perspective? > Now, what he was saying was that we need > to pursue justice on a much broader scale than simply > arresting and trying Bin Laden, who is himself only a > very small, and rather peripheral part of the problem > of terrorism. You have a good point. Perhaps we need to go after the United States government as well. For it has encouraged, funded, and perhaps directly participated in some terrorist actions. Can you say, "Iran Contra?" Can you say, "Ollie North?" > His friend apparently suggested that we > ought to fight for economic parity and religious > tollerance in the Middle East. That we ought to seek > to ensure that the common people in countries like > Afghanistan have a chance to experience the freedoms > that we enjoy, the freedoms of life, liberty, and > property. In the founding of the United States, who fought for us to ensure we had economic parity with England, to ensure we had religious freedoms? Russia? France? England? And then who fought for the Indians, to ensure they had economic parity with the settlers who were overrunning them? General George Custer? Are not large groups of Indians to this day oppressed? In the middle ages, who fought for the peasants to experience life, liberty, property? The Catholic Church? Perhaps freedoms will not come until people decide that freedoms are worth having, and elect to pursue actions themselves to obtain those freedoms. > I think that this is perhaps a good understanding of > the situation in many nations that despise the United > States and its policies. They perceive us as being > forces not of justice, but of innequity, and perhaps > inniquity. They see us as supporting opressive > regimes, and possibly even terrorist states, (as many > people believe Israel is so.) > The problem that I see is this: we may not be able to > influence the political processes in regimes that > opress and engender this attitude towards us. If that > is the case, then I see it as a necessary evil to go > to war with opressive and violent regimes. So we have to go to war with people who don't like us? And this will, of course, make them love us? Regimes that oppress use many things to do so: propaganda, peer pressure, force or threat of force against nay-sayers, and the instilling of foundational beliefs in or into their cultures. That there are ways to be free, to hold opinions different than neighbors and get away with it, to have ability to speak freely or have rights of peacable assembly: Not all cultures or societies know of these things, embrace these things, nor, if offered the opportunity to have these things, would know what to do with them. (That doesn't mean, however, that groups could not educate such societies in what to do with such freedoms -- people like Peace Corps workers or University Extension personnel.) It might even be enculturated (or propagandized) in some societies to believe that such rights are evil; and that it is better to let leaders or recognized churchmen do the talking, and the rest to keep quiet. > We have > done so before to good effect. I think it is no > coincidence that some of our strongest allies are > countries whose governments we defeated in battle > where we then helped rebuild in the spirit of peace > and brotherhood, helping to ensure that people there > enjoyed the same basic freedoms that we do. But to do > that, we have to disarm the opressive governments, > which is almost never done without much loss of life. > Am I so wrong to believe in the justice of helping > others by protecting them from their oppresors, even > if that should mean that we might have to fight thoise > oppresors ourselves? Is there some fundamental flaw in > my reasoning that I do not see? Protecting people from oppressors involves creating enmity towards them. There is the matter of perspective, and the polarizing effects of propaganda and war/patriotism activities. (What did George Bush say last night? Essentially, "Nations must be for us, or they are against us." Talk about polarization! Talk about total lack of humility?! If that is not an ultimatum, I do not know what is! What started last week as an attack by a small band of terrorists now seems to empower our president to arrogantly defy the rest of the world, perhaps to polarize the rest of the world, and plunge the world in to World War III as they choose sides!) Let us say that someone comes into power here in the U.S. tomorrow called Merk, and Merk tells us, in a very convincing way, that the biggest oppressor to economic freedom and disadvantagd peoples here in the U.S. were the rich Jews, Methodists, and Lutherans? That the Jews, Methodists, Lutherans, and bankers and corporate presidents are the oppressors in today's society, and were we to rid ourselves of their economic lies that they publish in their own big journals, of the sickness of their beliefs, then everyman could then be free to pursue the American Dream of owning their own business, of competing fairly on the market-place? Leader Merk calls us to arms. He says, "We must free ourselves of their influence, of their power! We must take them over by force, by any means necessary to achieve our aims of parity!" We can now engage in the "justice of helping others by protecting them from their oppresors, even if that should mean that we might have to fight thoise oppresors ourselves," as you say. (Is this, by the way, any different than the rhethoric used by Soviet Marxists?) And if the war was won with those so-called oppressors, we would then be free -- but not free of the lies of propaganda. Not free of power-seeking individuals willing to incite passion and fury in fellow citizens. Not free of war. Not free to have liberties. I am reminded of an episode of "Start Trek Voyager" in which Commander Jakotay, visiting a planet, is captured by one of the groups involved in a civil war with another group. Jakotay is subjected to a series of heart- breaking incidents of the vicissitudes of war and hatred by the enemy on the innocents of a small village of peaceful tribal people. He becomes convinced of the awfulness of the enemy of these people, and is eventually enrolled in the army of the nation of the people of the village, to fight their terrible foes. Only later, when Voyager's crew attempts to rescue Jakotay, does he discover that it was all an illusion, comparable to a "holo-deck" mirage, playing itself out to purposefully engage his (or anybody's) passions, enrage his passions, to fight against the terrible foe. When Commander Tuvok beams down to the planet to save Jakotay, the illusion of the people of those villagers gives Tuvok the reptilian appearance of the enemy, and Jakotay nearly fires upon and kills his friend Tuvok. This episode is one of the most powerful reminders of the terrible power of rhethoric, of propaganda, to polarize individuals and create enmity where enmity may not have been before. And where it need not be. Do not peace-loving individuals tire of enmity games? I am becoming more and more ashamed of George Bush as political leader and spokesman of the American people to the world. He does not speak for me when he speaks ultimatums. But he does apparently (today) speak for the passions of (>60%? >75%) of our fellow Americans. This is frightening. > We have taken to > seeing our nation as the worlds great policeman, but > what we forgot in the Gulf ten years ago, was that > policeman do more than just chase down suspected > criminals, they help the victims of those crimes. We > did little to help the biggest victims of Sadam > Hussain, his people, and he did much to make them feel > that we were attacking them, and not him. And this > undoubtedly contributed to what happened last week. > (As it was the Gulf War that led Bin Laden to launch > his crusade against us in the first place.) > In any case, I do ceratainly value your oppinion, and > I would like to know how you feel about my thoughts. Unhappy, David. I feel unhappy with the train of your thoughts. As if it were not already obvious. But I am glad you are sharing them. I value your sharing your thoughts and opinions. You help make us all think. And I don't disagree with everything you say on this subject. Just most things. ;-) > Thay are however, as always, simply thoughts. > Sometimes near random meanderings. I send this for > your consideration in peace and brotherhood, not as an > attempt to disrespect your thoughts. It has always > been my goal when involved in disagreement to allow > myself to be open to truth when someone presnets it to > me. I hope to remain open to truths you present. How am I doing? > It is my hope that we might reach consensus upon > truth, whatever it may be. And I believe that we never > know what it is, but can better approximate it amonst > us than I can alone. So here is to reaching consensus, > and understanding. It would be a great tragedy if my > hasty and ill considered words came between us and > serverd to divide. > Sincerely, > David Ackerman > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > From jbrotema Fri Sep 21 15:28:20 2001 Received: (from jbrotema@localhost) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8LKSK106753; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:28:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:28:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeff Brotemarkle To: "David D. Eisenstein" Subject: Re: ps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 6377 Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, David D. Eisenstein wrote: > Thanks, Jeff. > > You say that there is a scale of values caleed creaturliness or maya, the > divine play. And that this represents some kind of lower octave, a dance? > What are these values? Different systems give them different names, & sometimes slightly different concepts associated with the name. The important point is that there's more than just one scale of value. For example, to be specific, Robert Pirsig in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Lila, two of his books, lists the values I'm talking about as Quality, Intellect, Society, Biology, and Physical Law. So he has these five values. I do the same thing he's doing but in a slightly different way so that I have the seven values of divinity, thought, emotion, will, groundedness, life, and chaos. The astrologers have a similar system of seven values associated with the planets sun, moon, mars, mercury, jupiter, venus and saturn. Actually the astrologers use two different such value systems, with two different numbers of value. The first, with seven values, I have already mentioned. The second, of course, is the twelve values of aries, taurus, gemini, cancer, leo, virgo, libra, scorpio, saggitarius, capricorn, aquarius, and pisces. > > Maya, the divine music -- what values does that represent? There is value inherent in having the world continue, and for something to go on in that world. It's simply valuable for us to have something to do, isn't it? Maya is Mother Earth. I guess she represents the value inherent in our mother, the Earth. > > And you say there is a scale of values? What are the other values in the > scale called, other than maya? And what do they mean? I am saying that the world God made is so complex that all values cannot be listed on the same scale, as if they were all simply different amounts of only one kind of value. At least 3 scales of value must be used. Ultimately, every part of the universe is unique and valuable in its own right, so I suppose an infinite number of value scales would ultimately be necessary, however that's too large a demand on the mind. It can't handle numbers that large. So to simplify the actual reality for the convenience of the mind we use a handful of values, some number, say, between 3 and 13, each with its own scale. > > You speak here of things in a vague way that I am having trouble > following. You're right, I apologize. I've gone into this in greater detail in previous posts, but don't remember who I've told what. Perhaps you were not one of those I spoke to. > Are there specific emotions or value judgments which you are > speaking of? Are they good? Bad? High? Low? Noble? Base? Intimate? > Detached? Angry? Joyful? Near? Far? Wet? Dry? > My way of coming up with more than one scale is to use seven values. To relist them, with the planet from astrology which most closely approximates them, life sun emotion moon will mars thought mercury divinity jupiter groundedness venus chaos saturn There might be specific situations or objects that would contain some amount of all of these seven values, perhaps the object or situation could be numerically rated on all seven scales, thus giving some sort of vague idea at least of the amount of value inhering in the object. I suppose for a rough guage of total amount of value you might take a weighted average of all seven scales. To get some idea of the exact nature of that value you'd need all 7 numbers though. But I don't think this system is best seen as a numerical rating system, but rather as 7 different types of ingredients that one might draw on to improve any given moment that one may be experiencing, much as a chef, while cooking, tastes the stew to see how it may be improved, then adds this or that from his store of 7 spices to improve the quality of the stew. Before he serves the stew, he may taste it several times, adding whatever spice that moment calls for. In living our lives we are continuously testing the quality of the situation, and asking God what needs to be added to our current moment to improve it. In the case of life, we never stop improving things, the day of serving the stew never comes, or, rather, the day of serving the stew is not a final event, but is done continuously and always, simultaneously with tasting and improving it. > If you would elucidate, it might help me understand better. Thanks, Jeff! > > Your friend, > David Eisenstein > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Jeff Brotemarkle wrote: > > > Ackerman also argues from a scale of values I forgot to mention, the scale > > of life, creaturliness, or what the natives of India call maya, the divine > > play. One of the lessons of this point of view is that God loves music, > > so much so that He sets us all up as musicians who continuously play such > > music. The lower octaves of such music are called dance, and even more > > generally, motion. In this eternal symphony we are only allowed brief > > rest notes before we are compelled by the nature of this value to continue > > playing. God wants this music to continue, & in solving any problem at > > the council table so that a good resolution for good action may result, > > the representative of maya, the divine music, must be as satisfied as the > > other values. > > > > > > Jeff Brotemarkle > > > > "The first step [in the monastic life] is the total acceptance of all > > the parts of our being -- body and soul, mind and instinct, emotions and > > will, in order to give all to God in the harmony of a balanced and > > spiritualized personality." > > -- Thomas Merton > > > > > > If you want me to be clearer, please ask more questions so I have a starting point for further explanation. Please have patience with me, don't give up on me. I want to be clear if I can be. Jeff Brotemarkle "The first step [in the monastic life] is the total acceptance of all the parts of our being -- body and soul, mind and instinct, emotions and will, in order to give all to God in the harmony of a balanced and spiritualized personality." -- Thomas Merton From deisenst@coin.org Fri Sep 21 23:35:07 2001 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:35:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , "Cheryl L. Hill" , Jeff Brotemarkle , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw Subject: Calming the waters, stating my boundaries Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Dear all, These discussions as of late have resulted in passionate expressions of personal point-of-view and positions. The past week has seen more email and controversy on the "Habadasher Soup" list than we'd seen in a long time. It is good to see the ole list dusted off, polished a bit, and the stove in the kitchen fired up and cooking again. Regarding the subjects "A Cry", "An appology", "another thought" and so on, I am going to suggest that it is time to give this matter a little rest, for a time. I feel bad about the last message I posted, being contrary to David Ackerman. I wish I could claim that I have gotten over having felt pissed off, and can accept David's arguments with an open mind, but reviewing my last note -- it is obvious that I do not have an open mind at this time. I can try to let go of anger or hurt, but as much as I wish it to dissipate quickly, so I can be objective in this discussion -- alas, I cannot. And that's just the way it is. My objec- tivity is lost at the expense of having to be right, make David Ackerman wrong, and rub his nose in it. Which means I am going to ridiculous lengths to disagree. And I feel bad about that. Obviously, I am still pissed. And I am sorry, but that's just the way it is. And it's going to take time to become unpissed. If others on the list wish to engage David Ackerman in this debate, have at it. I am done with this topic for now, and warn David Ackerman that further attempts to convince me of his points of view or engage me in this discussion will serve only to damage the friendship that he and I have. Engage the rest of the group in this discussion -- sure! Just leave me out of the email. I am at the end of my patience; please respect this. If you want my participation in this topic in a week -- ask me then; but no sooner. I need some time for my stone to turn into sand. I appreciate your understanding, forebearance, and distance. Respectfully, David Eisenstein From deisenst@coin.org Sat Sep 22 15:23:07 2001 Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:23:07 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: Val Hinshaw , "Cheryl L. Hill" Subject: A nice sermon Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Dear Val and Cheryl, Ran across a beautiful sermon on the world wide web. It mentions and explains a story by Clarence Forsberg! At any rate, its message seems very timely, and perhaps you would find it helpful. You can find it at: http://www.gbgm-umc.org/newman-umc/sermons/2001-02-25.htm A fellow named Rev. Brett Strobel wrote it. Enjoy! A friend, David From deisenst@coin.org Sat Sep 22 20:52:30 2001 Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:52:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" Reply-To: "David D. Eisenstein" To: David Ackerman Subject: Please Desist Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: David, No, I don't hate you. Please discontinue calling me several times a day. Please let me be. I am not ready nor willing to talk with you on the telephone nor in person at this time. I ask for time, space, and distance. Is that too much to ask? Be patient and wait. -David From chehill@concentric.net Sun Sep 23 23:35:52 2001 Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8O4Zqt01652 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:35:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.198.71]) by darius.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f8O4Zm027404 ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 00:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Errors-To: Received: from concentric.net (ts008d24.okc-ok.concentric.net [64.1.17.132]) by newman.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id AAA28940; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 00:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BADFB2C.42322ACB@concentric.net> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:09:33 -0500 From: Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill Reply-To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" Subject: Re: Calming the waters, stating my boundaries References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2828 Status: RO X-Status: David, I always hate to hang up the phone when I'm talking to you. This is a lovely letter you wrote, and very well said. This is my opinion, and it is mine. And, I think that David A would receive it well. This is just a guess, but I thought I'd try to send you my affirmation. So few people seem to be saying and writing things I agree with these days. blessings, Cheryl "David D. Eisenstein" wrote: > Dear all, > > These discussions as of late have resulted in passionate expressions of > personal point-of-view and positions. The past week has seen more email > and controversy on the "Habadasher Soup" list than we'd seen in a long > time. It is good to see the ole list dusted off, polished a bit, and the > stove in the kitchen fired up and cooking again. > > Regarding the subjects "A Cry", "An appology", "another thought" and so > on, I am going to suggest that it is time to give this matter a little > rest, for a time. I feel bad about the last message I posted, being > contrary to David Ackerman. I wish I could claim that I have gotten over > having felt pissed off, and can accept David's arguments with an open > mind, but reviewing my last note -- it is obvious that I do not have an > open mind at this time. I can try to let go of anger or hurt, but as much > as I wish it to dissipate quickly, so I can be objective in this > discussion -- alas, I cannot. And that's just the way it is. My objec- > tivity is lost at the expense of having to be right, make David Ackerman > wrong, and rub his nose in it. Which means I am going to ridiculous > lengths to disagree. And I feel bad about that. Obviously, I am still > pissed. And I am sorry, but that's just the way it is. And it's going to > take time to become unpissed. > > If others on the list wish to engage David Ackerman in this debate, have > at it. I am done with this topic for now, and warn David Ackerman that > further attempts to convince me of his points of view or engage me in this > discussion will serve only to damage the friendship that he and I have. > Engage the rest of the group in this discussion -- sure! Just leave me > out of the email. I am at the end of my patience; please respect this. > > If you want my participation in this topic in a week -- ask me then; but > no sooner. I need some time for my stone to turn into sand. > > I appreciate your understanding, forebearance, and distance. > > Respectfully, > David Eisenstein -- Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill (405) 741-3542 Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C. Follow this link daily to "Donate Free Food" From chehill@concentric.net Sun Sep 23 23:35:53 2001 Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by coins0.coin.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8O4Zqt01655; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:35:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.198.71]) by darius.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f8O4Zr027426 ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 00:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Errors-To: Received: from concentric.net (ts008d24.okc-ok.concentric.net [64.1.17.132]) by newman.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id AAA28960; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 00:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BADFBF5.28E2C635@concentric.net> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:12:54 -0500 From: Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill Reply-To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David D. Eisenstein" CC: Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , "Cheryl L. Hill" , Jeff Brotemarkle , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw Subject: Quote of Martin Luther King, Jr. References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070EB681665D8FF4AC10DBCA" Content-Length: 3272 Status: RO X-Status: A --------------070EB681665D8FF4AC10DBCA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The below quote from Dr. Martin Luther King was included in Sojourners newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate.... Returning violence for violence multiples violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr. -- Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill (405) 741-3542 Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C. Follow this link daily to "Donate Free Food" --------------070EB681665D8FF4AC10DBCA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  The below quote from Dr. Martin Luther King was included in Sojourners newsletter.

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is
a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it
seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it
multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the
liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish
the truth. Through violence you murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely
increases hate.... Returning violence for violence
multiples violence, adding deeper darkness to a
night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot
drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate
cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

                - Martin Luther King Jr.

--
Cheryl Lynn Wofford Hill
<cheryllhill@yahoo.com>
(405) 741-3542
Through September 30th, 2001, America's Second Harvest and Mercy Corps
will direct the funds generated from The Hunger Site to aid victims
and survivors in New York City and Washington D.C.  Follow this link
daily to "Donate Free Food" <http://www.thehungersite.com>
  --------------070EB681665D8FF4AC10DBCA-- From deisenst@coin.org Mon Sep 24 01:49:50 2001 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:49:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" Reply-To: "David D. Eisenstein" To: cheryllhill@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Calming the waters, stating my boundaries In-Reply-To: <3BADFB2C.42322ACB@concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Dear Cheryl, Really enjoyed the phone call Saturday night. Am keeping Paraclete and you and Christopher in my prayers. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen. We may not have solved the world's problems, but we sure did some good sharing and relating. Like you, I am not fond of hanging up when in conversation with you on the phone. Thank you for looking at the letter and affirming it. You were brave to go there. I do not doubt that in due time, David A. and David E. will be on good terms again. :) Just found an interesting article, about your stomping grounds. From the United Methodist News Service - " Oklahoma City pastors share insights from 1995 bombing " at webpage http://umns.umc.org/01/sep/418.htm Enjoy. 'n God bless. -David From deisenst@coin.org Thu Sep 27 13:35:40 2001 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:35:39 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , "Cheryl L. Hill" , Jeff Brotemarkle , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw cc: Gary Clark Subject: [Soulboosters] Don't waste any time dividing the world . . . (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Thought you all might enjoy this. Cheryl, you may particularly enjoy the mention of the articles by Denise Breton and Stephen Lehman about Restorative Justice below, since you gave that seminar in April. Compassion and Shalom, David ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:54:48 -0400 From: soulboosters@spiritualityhealth.com Reply-To: brussat@spiritualrx.com To: soulboosters@spiritualityhealth.com Subject: [Soulboosters] Don't waste any time dividing the world . . . Don't waste any time dividing the world into the good guys and the bad guys. Hold them both together in your own soul -- where they are anyway -- and you will have held together the whole world. You will have overcome the great divide -- in one place of spacious compassion. -- Richard Rohr in "Hope Against Darkness" To Practice This Thought: Pray for all sides of a conflict. * * * * * * * NEWS from SPIRITUALITYHEALTH.COM: * The terrorist attacks are bringing up all kinds of emotions. We've put together a special reading list of "Books that Speak to Your Condition" at http://www.spiritualityhealth.com/newsh/items/blank/item_3327.html. Check out our recommendations if you are feeling . . . anger, fear, hope, and more. * People are calling for justice, but what does that mean? Denise Breton and Stephen Lehman describe not a justice of revenge but a justice that heals wounds. Their articles on "Justice as a Healing, Constructive Activity" and "Operation Restorative Justice" give the philosophy and some very concrete short-term and long-term objectives for this approach. Follow the links off the homepage at http://www.spiritualityhealth.com. * * * * * * * Soul Boosters, a free educational gift to our community, are distributed twice weekly by Spirituality & Health. * * * * * * * --- If you wish to subscribe to this mailing list, send an email to soulboosters-request@listserve.com and as the subject, put: subscribe soulboosters. To unsubscribe, send an email to soulboosters-request@listserve.com and as the subject, put: unsubscribe soulboosters From deisenst@coin.org Thu Sep 27 14:01:26 2001 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:01:26 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: "Cheryl L. Hill" cc: Habadasher Soup -- David Ackerman , Jeff Brotemarkle , Kelly Lasiter , Lucrecia Culberson , "Rev. Rhymes Moncure" , Val Hinshaw Subject: Re: Quote of Martin Luther King, Jr. In-Reply-To: <3BADFBF5.28E2C635@concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Cheryl, Thank you for sharing this quote. It is beautiful. It seems true; but could it really be? A choir Lucrecia I just started in is doing a piece by a local St. Louis composer named Dello Thedford, which has the choir accompanying a speaker reciting Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "I have a Dream" speech. We will be performing it next January, around the Dr. Martin Luther King national holiday. If any of you wish to come, let me know, and I will get you particulars of date/time/place. Shalom, David Eisenstein From deisenst@coin.org Thu Sep 27 14:20:24 2001 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:20:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "David D. Eisenstein" To: "Cheryl L. Hill" Subject: (personal) Re: Quote of Martin Luther King, Jr. In-Reply-To: <3BADFBF5.28E2C635@concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Hey Cheryl, Your sharing this quote is almost as if you were in partial agreement with some of the points in my retort to David Ackerman titled "More thoughts," which I later claimed that I was going overboard and to ridiculous lengths to disagree with Ackerman. It was kind of what I was trying to get at in disparaging Ackerman's favoritism towards going to war to create more just societies, esp. when I claimed that war may liberate some sector of society at the expense of another (did I claim that?), and at the expense of subjecting society to the lying propaganda and polarizing judgments that come with war.... But Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., expresses it so much more eloquently than I could ever hope to.... Thanks again, for sharing that, Cheryl! Shalom, David Eisenstein